Native Drums
Explore the powerful symbolism of drums in African American culture, once tools of communication and resistance during the darkest times of slavery. We confront the lingering shadows of economic exploitation and the pervasive influence of media and religion in controlling black narratives. Let’s reexamine the role of the black church and its mission to fight systemic injustices, urging a return to prophetic ministries that prioritize humanity and community over material wealth. This podcast episode is not just a reflection of the past but a call to action for the future, urging us to build a more just and liberated world.
Native Drums
A Pastor’s Journey: Faith, Service, and the Black Church’s Future
What if the true measure of a church isn’t its size, but the lives it lifts? That question powers a candid, inspiring conversation with Reverend Dr. Charles B. Jackson, who began preaching at nine, became a pastor at eighteen, and has spent 54 years turning faith into tangible change. We go beyond biography to map a blueprint any community can adapt: scholarships for every college-bound student, a former school reborn as an empowerment center, youth sports tethered to tutoring, and a church-run credit union that treats capital as a tool for justice.
We talk about building real economic power—classes on creating generational wealth, a long-view plan for a Believers Millionaire Club by 2045, and why ownership is a moral responsibility. Dr. Jackson explains why his team reopened worship in the old neighborhood after three decades away, acknowledging that some neighbors felt uneasy in a mega-church setting. The result is proximity with purpose: health programs, homelessness services, jobs, and trust flowing back into the blocks that raised him.
The conversation also confronts the national moment with moral clarity. We name the “two Jesuses”—the Jesus of the Bible who centers “the least of these,” and the Americanized version used to sanctify power. Dr. Jackson calls the Black pulpit to recover its voice and outlines an old-school ground game that still wins elections: accountable lists, live phone calls, rides to the polls, and relentless follow-through. Hope here isn’t a slogan; it’s a practice, lived in budgets, schedules, and open doors.
If you care about faith that works, the Black church’s role in civic life, or practical paths to community wealth, this conversation is a handbook. Listen, share it with someone who leads, and tell us: what will you build this year? Subscribe for more stories that turn purpose into power, and leave a review to help others find the show.
Good evening. I'm Ralph Canton. It's my proud pleasure to host our event today and to have as our special guest the Reverend Dr. Charles B. Jackson of the Brooklyn Baptist Church of West Columbia, South Carolina. Dr. Jackson, it is such a pleasure to welcome you to Native Drums. And we're overly excited that your busy schedule allowed you the opportunity to stop by and talk with us today.
SPEAKER_00:Let me tell you, it's my good pleasure to be here. And I'm both honored and humbled that you would have me to come and to hear you speak of being overexcited. I don't know about being overexcited, but if there's another word on the other side of overexcited, that's how I am about sitting in this team next to you, man, and being a part of this program today. I'm so excited about it. Well, you're kind. I'm honest.
SPEAKER_01:He's honest, but he's also a very humble person. And I suspect that's um what I like most about you carry your gift with such grace, you know how to assimilate and to relate and to fellowship with pastors at all levels and uh with people at all levels. It says a whole lot about the true character and the nature of Charles Jackson. So again, thank you for coming. Many of you who are watching today know Dr. Jackson, or you have at least heard of him or had the privilege of sitting under his preaching. He is a noted pastor, but he's also a highly acclaimed preacher, evangelist, preaching across the state and over the nation. Again, we are really honored that he would stop by and share with us today. Dr. Jackson, you've had a brilliant career. But tell us a little bit about your start, about your childhood, what life was like before you arrived where you are today.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you, sir. Before speaking in that regard, permit me to give four words to you about our humility, about the perspective from which we view God's favor upon our ministry. Four words are I know the truth. Oh, when you speak character, I know the truth. And when I say scripturally, if it had not been, I speak the truth. I know the truth. So I am humbled by the favor that God has shown upon our efforts to minister his word and his work. My beginning was very unusual. I would have taken you all the way back to when I was two years old. My um sister tells of persons asking me about two years old, what are you gonna be when you grow up? And she said, I would always say, I go be a peacher. I couldn't say preacher, two years old, I will be a teacher. Now, what was most unusual about that is that there were no preachers in my family. Wow. Parent, grandparents, uncles, not even a distant cousin as a preacher. So we have no idea where that possibly could have come from at the age of two, but that's what my sister says. I would say I'm gonna be a teacher. Wow. And growing up in the Sunday school, uh, Christian parents, I had uh Thomas and Isella Rump Jackson, of course. We grew up under the spirit of loving God, attending church regularly, being active in the church all day on Sunday, like so many of us did. But when the call seemed to have come to me, it came in an unusual way. My my mother would tell us how I just find myself preaching whatever it was I was saying in my sleep. Uh our family uh was somewhat poor, uh, the poorest of the poor in the neighborhood. I didn't know anything about indoor running water until I was 19 years old. And uh I had three brothers, all younger than me, divided by two years each. And two of us slept at the foot of the bed, and two of us slept at the head of the bed in the one bedroom that I would have. And my mother would have to come in there and say, Charles, go to sleep. You're keeping everybody up. Be quiet. That seemed to have been some of the early beginnings of whatever this call of God upon my life was uh in becoming a preacher. Preaching in my sleep, being awakened by my mother, saying I'm keeping people up, be quiet, etc. and so on. And then at the age of nine, I preached my first sermon at a church called Pine Pleasant Baptist Church in Greenwood County. Wow. Nine. And then afterwards, 10. My parents thought something was wrong with me. You know, something, something, something got to be wrong with Charles. He's not all there because of my supposedly peculiar behavior as a kid growing up. And um so um they were concerned about me. So they went to the principal of the school I attended at the Lakeview School, who was himself a pastor and preacher, Dr. M.D. Bogan. And Dr. M.D. Bogan reminded them of the call of Samuel and said, You don't know what God is doing with that young man, leave him alone. So then, after having spoken with the principal of the school, she then went to our church pastor. They gave me an opportunity, and I became licensed to preach at the age of 10, and I was ordained at the age of 12. Wow. And that was at what church? At Brookland Baptist Church, where God has blessed me now to serve 54 years. So you are actually pastoring the church where you grew up? Yes, sir. Wow. Yes, sir. Where I've grown up. The only church that I've known anything about, the only church of my pastor without interruption for 54 successive years.
SPEAKER_01:Isn't that phenomenal? Were you surprised by that transition?
SPEAKER_00:I don't know about surprise, but I know I was scared. I mean, I just uh uh entered Benity College and um in the fall of that year, August, and then installed as pastor of the Brooklyn Church the first Sunday in February 1971. In 1971. 18 years old.
SPEAKER_01:At 18 years old. So you started preaching at nine, you uh were licensed at 10, or deigned at 12, and became a pastor at 18. I tell you. Wow. Find it hard to believe myself, Doc. And that's that's amazing. Uh now, if you can recall, uh you're 18 years old, Brooklyn Church at that time was a small congregation of about how many members? About 40 or 50.
SPEAKER_00:Less than 50.
SPEAKER_01:Less than 50 members. Yes, sir. 55 years later, what's what's the membership of that same church?
SPEAKER_00:I don't always talk about what the membership of the Brooklyn Church is because I don't always know.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I do say this that we are blessed with 204 employees. 200. 204 employees at the Brookland Church, about 63 of them full-time employees. The other ones are part-time or contract employees.
SPEAKER_01:63 full-time employees at a church 55 years ago that had less than 50 members. Yes, sir. Now, no question about it. God was in that movement, He was breathing on that movement. There's no question about that. But what are some of the other components that you think contribute to this awesome growth of the Brooklyn Church?
SPEAKER_00:I was encouraged by the administration at Benedict College, where I graduated in 1979, to pursue a degree in medicine at Mehara Medical College. They made arrangements because of my background in the sciences. And I graduated with my degree in math and also the sciences. And instead, um Dr. Latter Thomas, at that time, he was the college minister at Benedict College, and he must have seen something in me that I did not see in myself. And he said, No, son, you need to go to seminary. And so he made it possible for me to go to Morehouse School of Religion. During the time I was at Moho School of Religion, I was one of five students to have been chosen to participate in a year's study of King, educational model for social change. I want to think that that one-year study did a lot in terms of shaping my theological framework of the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ. And so we began to implement some of the things of which we had gleaned from our one-year study of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Of course, that created a lot of frustration because the people were not ready for what I thought that the true measure of the church should embrace. So I had to do a lot of educating our people and repeating some of the same basic themes over and over again every Sunday from the pulpit, such as one that we hold fast to yet even today. The true measure of a church is not determined by what it does for itself, but by what it does for others. Let me say that again. The true measure of a church is not determined by what it does for itself, but by what it does for others. And the Lord would give me scriptures to support it and sermons so that our people would come to understand what I thought to be and still do believe, true church according to the Holy Scriptures, as you reflect on the life and the ministry of Jesus our Christ. Another saying was, and it was on our bulletin every Sunday morning, the church that glorifies God and edifies humanity. That conjunction and most significant, glorifying God and edifying humanity. And then we had in our educational building as we kept growing up, the church, people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. So you've got to show yourself as a preacher, a fan of God, a woman of God who has compassion, who passionately, with compassion, cares for the people. And I think that those are the things that perhaps sort of encourage a kind of growth in the ministry, not for itself, but by what it does for others. So we were beginning to define the church in the late 70s from a perspective of which at that time many churches were not doing.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, okay, okay. Tell us a bit about some of the various ministries that the Brooklyn Church now offers to the community to make ministry holistic and meaningful for those who are in the congregation as well as for those that are part of the local landscape.
SPEAKER_00:The true measure of a church is not determined by what it does for itself, but by what it does for others. Because of that, um we embraced a theme that perhaps differs from the themes of most churches. Our mission statement is this: to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ as a church now through evangelism, education, and economic empowerment. Economic empowerment. Of course, the primary mission of the church is evangelism, winning souls for Christ. But that component of education became very, very important. As a result of that, uh we um proposed a number of um uh academic uh programs at the church, uh, the basic child development center, academy child development center. But we have a strong scholarship program, strong scholarship program. Uh each year uh we give out between 40 to 60 scholarships to graduating high school seniors. Every uh student who graduates from high school and attends college receives a scholarship or educational assistance award. Uh we have an honors program whereby all honorable students are recognized every or twice a year uh during um uh the school term. Um we purchased the school, the school that uh uh we attended uh for um 10 years, the former Lakeview School. They were going to demolish all the school and dismiss our history, destroy our legacy, and we couldn't let that happen. And so we went to the district and the mayor of the city of West Columbia and asked could we buy the school. So the Brooklyn Church brought the 94,000 square feet uh former Lakeview School, converted that into an empowerment center with a strong emphasis on education and empowerment, where a tutorial program goes on. The tutorial program is a part of our academic athletic program, which means that if you're gonna be a part of our Pop Warner Little League football team and our AAU basketball teams, you've got to maintain the C6 uh C average. If you're deficient in an area and you want to continue playing, then we've got a tutorial program there, and we encourage parents to take a part in that tutorial program. Just some of the things in which we do. Let me brag on our football team for just a little bit. We're the only football team in the whole state to, in one year, 2021, I believe, or 2022, one of those years, where all four of our programs won state championships: six and under, eight and under, ten and under, twelve and under, and then the ten and under won a national championship in Orlando, Florida. Wow. So that's part of education. And then the economic uh empowerment program uh has to do with the establishment of the credit union. So we have a credit union drive-through uh standalone building for our credit union. We have a banquet and conference center, and uh that's buffet meals uh uh every Sunday from about um uh 10 until 3, and then weekdays, uh Tuesday through Fridays from um uh about 11 to 2. Uh and then of course we host a number of events. So it's a venue for events to be held as well. That's a part of the Banquota Conference Center that is Brooklyn Empowerment Center. We um what else do we have when it comes to empowerment? So we have the 204 employees. Um development center serves not only the educational component, but also the economic empowerment component. A lot going on.
SPEAKER_01:Amen. It's a wonderful program. I I'm I'm familiar with it, and uh I'm I'm really delighted that this audience will get the opportunity to know what Brooklyn is doing because what Brooklyn is doing should not be the exception, it should be the model. Other churches can do some of those same things, maybe at a different level or in different dimensions. So it's critical that we look at what Brooklyn is doing and thank God for it, and cherry-pick maybe is the word I want to use. Cherry pick those those ministries that that we can afford to engage in in the local church because I think we both agree that the salvation of the black church in large measure is dependent upon what happens at the black church. Can you talk about a bit about the relationship between the black church and the black community? Um when when when we were young, and I'm I'm much older than you, but when when we were young, church was just the center of the community. You know, we we we learned how to um to um to appear before an audience at church. We learn how to speak at church. We learn so much about life and our abilities at church. So in this age, there seems to be, while some churches are mega churches that are just just growing like that, but in the general sense, there is a falling away from the church. You want to talk to us about that a bit?
SPEAKER_00:Each of the things you said still, in my humble opinion, needs to be a part of the mission of the church. All those values that were a part of the church when um you and I were growing up and others as well, where you learn how to speak, we have authorical context, etc. and so on, and so on, where you um learn how to um uh social, become social uh in relating to others, uh, those things are important. Uh however, I believe that far more now than ever, and it's really just borrowing something from what you earlier said, which made church so significant, it was the hub, it was the centerpiece of that community. The church, perhaps even more now than ever, has to have a profound community impact. I think God has located us in the places where our church buildings are, where our ministries are served, to make a difference in that community. Going back to the others again, uh the Brookland Foundation, for instance, uh one of our nonprofits, it's uh has its own separate governing board, just as the credit union and also as the Brooklyn Lake Empowerment Center, uh, deals with the homeless. And so we have a strong and very effective homeless program for those in the community where we are serving. Our health and wellness program, we uh built a health and wellness uh center uh from the health and wellness program, which was a part of the Brookland Foundation. All of those kinds of programs and services help make a significant difference in the neighborhood, in the community. Um I've tried to pastor the Brooklyn Church as best I can, could, for 54 years. But I've never been happier or more excited about what God is doing than I am right now. And one of the reasons is because of the impact being made in the neighborhood where I grew up. Last year, we gave$1.3 million back to the neighborhood in programs and services, making a difference in people's lives. And because of that, we just recently on Resurrected Sunday returned to worship at 1032 Monasella Street, where we left 33 years ago. We renovated that building after that building had sat for 33 years, and we began a worship service there in the neighborhood every Sunday at 10 a.m. Many of the persons from the neighborhood did not feel comfortable in worshiping in a large church. Wow. And unfortunately, it took us 33 years to figure that out. But now we're worshiping there every Sunday at 10 o'clock, and it's been a major blessing in the neighborhood. Wow, wow, wow, okay, okay.
SPEAKER_01:That's that's that's uh exhilarating to hear. Exhilarating to hear. Well, let's let's let's turn our attention, our focus for a minute to to the national scene, if you don't mind. Uh our government shut down. Six days. Six days. We shut down with a dysfunctional government to uh what I'd call to the highest level. It's because it's perhaps been dysfunctional even before the shutdown the shutdown. Many of us bleed, cry, weep because of the state of affairs in America, as well as the state of affairs around around the world. But it concerns me, Pastor Jackson, that seemingly so many people are insensitive to what's going on. They seem not to understand, I guess the word I want to use is the gravity of uh of the situation. I I read just over the weekend where a recent poll was taken among black voters, and the number of supporters for the present administration has actually gone up. And and I'm bewildered by where we are. On America, the beautiful, or America the ugly. Where are we?
SPEAKER_00:Thank you for uh asking me and giving me the opportunity to try and address that. The Brooklyn Church now has four different locations. We have the Montecello Street where we formerly were, the West Campus where we are. 17 years ago, we planted a church in northeast Richland County, which was one of the fastest growing, is one of the fastest growing uh regions in the state. Uh, and then we have our Brooklyn Beyond audience. We have a pastor of B2. He's the Minister of Online Engagement, he's a part of staff. So recently, and the reason I reference that is because uh the pastor, campus pastor of the Northeast locations, like a son of mine, uh Dr. Christopher Levy Johnson, he uh has a PhD degree in African American history. Uh very smart, brilliant young man, articulates uh social issues so very well. So we decided to sit and talk a little bit about what's going on because, in my humble opinion, at a time when the church perhaps needs to be more actively involved and visibly engaged uh with this with the social issues that are adversely affecting God's people, we have now become quiet.
SPEAKER_01:Wow, silence.
SPEAKER_00:There's a silence among us that scares us. And the reason uh it concerns me greatly about it is because I know, as I'm sure you do and many others, that it was the voice of the black pastor in at the black pulpit in the black church that was responsible for almost everything that was good for us as a people.
SPEAKER_01:Wow.
SPEAKER_00:Wow as a people, huh? Were it not for the black pastor at the black pulpit in the black church, we would not have had all of the gains of which we currently have. And so if we don't become a more viable and visible, effective voice, then the chances of us countering what's going on that's negatively affecting our people becomes that much smaller.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:So so so I am really, really concerned about the black church. Now, I've taken a position this, I know I can't do everything for everybody, but I know one thing, where God has located us, we want to try to make a difference. We want to try to speak truth, reflecting not only Jesus as some see him, but I often say to our people, the Jesus of the Bible. I'm not so sure we're following in Christianity today the Jesus of the Bible.
SPEAKER_01:Wow.
SPEAKER_00:And we've got to make sure it is known the Jesus of the Bible, man. You you can't be a solid Christian, and then 25 Matthew doesn't bother you when Jesus talked about the least of bees. You've got to be concerned about the least of bees if you're going to reflect the life of the Jesus of the Bible. So the church has to, the church, the church has to become, I believe, believe, more vocal. In some kind of way, Doc. Some kind of way.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I don't have the answer now. Right. Huh? But I think it's a burden. And I would that there would be more pastors to carry that burden.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. Well, clearly, clearly, there are two Jesuses.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, so you are agreeing with me.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yes. There's a Jesus of the Bible. Jesus of the Bible, doctor. Who came from God to set his people free. Uh-huh. And then there's a Jesus of America who has come to oppress some people so other people can be wealthy, influential, and enjoy the best of life because they believe that the Jesus of America has given America to them and not to the people who have helped to make America. great. So I'm glad you you uh you you made that distinction in in your conversation. We have a serious Pastor Jackson in my opinion we're we're at a serious crossroad in America because democracy is being corrupted by white supremacy and unfortunately white Christianity is the drum major for white supremacy and what's even worse there are so many of us in our community who think that white Christianity is the model when that model embraces enslavement and disenfranchisement it was evangelicals white Christians in America that endorsed the present leadership that we have and cannot see anything wrong with their vote nor with the action of the person they voted for.
SPEAKER_00:Let me speak just a little to that my greater concern has not been the simple voting perhaps even the endorsing but it's how they have celebrated him as if he's the second coming of Jesus Christ. That's how I have seen it in my experiences around the Brooklyn church throughout the state of South Carolina. Not just voting and endorsing but celebrating at the second coming of Jesus Christ and that's dangerous. That's seriously dangerous. And so it it it it it it's it's a scary time unfortunately I don't like saying that because I do know that the hope I know we we've got a hope though.
SPEAKER_01:Yes my my hope still is built all right and Jesus Christ he's righteous that that that's our hope I don't know if we are delivering that message of hope anywhere else than on the pulpit but we got to live that hope we got to live we got to demonstrate that hope doctor we got to demonstrate that hope we got to declare it but we also got to live it we got to show it doctor we got to show it yeah yeah we got to show it yeah speak to us for a minute about what the black pulpit needs to do to empower folk educate them and get them ready to engage in the elections of the midterm and four years from now two three years from two more yeah two more years from the I the um the midterm and the regular election speak to us a bit about that and we're gonna let you go this has it's been a wonderful conversation.
SPEAKER_00:My voice is rather small I've got a little voice um however I said earlier that I I first tried to approach it from the ministry I'm trying to serve at the Brooklyn Church. And um so very interesting there we began a study last year on creating generational wealth. Because that's a problem that we have and so we we took a Bible study whole semester Bible study with sessions on creating generational wealth because a good man leaves an inheritance for his children and his children's children and we don't have an inheritance to leave on because we don't own anything we have we own less proportionately now than ever as a black community than we did in the 50s and the 60s. That's right huh we had business that not only were sustained but they thrived years past. But when you look at our communities now we have far less now so I'm teaching a course now after coming out of creating generational wealth I'm teaching the book of Exodus because I learned that many of my white friends had never heard a sermon from the book of Exodus. Wow told me Dr. Jackson have you ever preached a sermon from the book preached a sermon from the book of Exodus yes the only time they heard anything about the book of Exodus was the Ten Commandments have never heard it. So we're teaching now Exodus journey to the promised land and the theme of it is not that that's the topic the theme is it starts with me. Wow it it it's it starts with me we are journeying to promised land living and we set up through our and I'm gonna come to what you're talking about we set up through our creating generational wealth classes the possibility that by the year 2045 we hope to have at least 50 members of Brooklyn a part of the Believers Millionaire club. Wow the believers Millionaire club so some have already started that journey and then not to touch the plan that we put in place until 2045. So I already told the Lord I got to stay around here to 2045 because I've got them started on this path to becoming a member of the Believers Millionaire Club. Now as far as the elections of the midterms I'm old school in a number of ways now I'm old school in a number of ways I can understand and and please correct me if an error I can understand why it is so difficult for us to return troops on the ground during election time. I've tried to say back in the day when we were trying to get somebody elected I know in the neighborhood where I live we asked for some funding to staff some persons leading up to the election assigning certain streets and certain highways and certain small neighborhoods in the community and then being totally responsible for getting those persons to the polls such as if I got a list of 50 persons to whom I'm assigned then I'm going to contact them all right during the middle of the day during election I'm gonna call have you been to the poll yet if they have not been to the poll we're gonna provide transportation for you to get to the poll. In my neighborhood in our community we've gotten away from that we've gotten away from that being certain that you are responsible for a list of persons and giving you some funding a little bit to help you make certain these persons get to the poll. If we don't get them to the poll we might as well forget it. And so who's gonna be responsible for getting to the polls when most of us are irresponsible people that's in my opinion. And let me tell you anytime a state has over 30% of African American population there is absolutely no reason why an African American cannot be elected to a statewide constitutional office. We got them there but somehow we're having difficulty motivating and mobilizing our people to get to the point. Yeah yeah and that's where our strength is our strength is in voting in voting but how you gonna get up there unless you put some troops on the ground that's how I'm looking at it. Then not too many folk look at a commercial not in my neighborhood I don't smoke my nerd look at a commercial and say I'm gonna vote with him because of what I'm seeing in the commercial but they know if somebody's got there getting them to the polls they're more likely than not to go. So I'm just hoping that we'll start thinking about a different strategy now. I know this day is a day of technology dog and I know it I appreciate it to a great degree but I still got some old school in me. Give me 100 names I'll be responsible these 100 people getting to the polls as old school and I suspect there is an element of optimism and hope that out of the ugliness there will arise an urgency.
SPEAKER_01:Preach it out so let us continue to work with our people work with our pastors help them to crystallize a vision and a clear message so that we can do what we both feel that God has called us to do not only in terms of preparing people for eternity but for the here and the now thank you for the great leadership you're providing the Brooklyn church and to South Carolina and to our nation it's a wonderful pleasure to have you at Savannah Grove and for native drums and we hope to have you again real soon. Thank you sir thank you for the time